And today I am joined by a phenomenal author,

international best-selling author, Annemarie Shrouder.

So thank you so much for your time

and such a pleasure to connect with you.

Yeah, I'm very happy to be here with you today to chat

with regard to where our conversation goes.

Yeah, and as I understand it, over the years,

you've married yourself into the diversity,

equity, inclusion work for the past 20 years.

You know, you've seen the original days.

Um, maybe not the original days.

When I started in 2004, officially,

when I opened my business,

we were already talking about this stuff, right?

We called it D&I at that point.

We didn't have the E.

We certainly weren't talking about the B.

It had already been around for a while.

So I didn't see the early, early stages.

I'm not that old, but I definitely, you know,

have been in it for a while.

To see some of the changes,

which some have been exciting

and some are really frustrating.

And what are some of these frustrations

that you think have been maintained throughout these years?

Wow, so many.

Not to be a downer, but, um,

one of the frustrations I have is the,

the willingness that companies have

and organizations have to, to step into EDI,

but only to a certain point.

And, and as you know, it's a long-term commitment

and it's, it's work.

We're unearthing.

We are acknowledging.

We are noticing.

We are connecting.

We're building.

We're dismantling.

That's not a one workshop thing.

It's not a one year thing.

It's a, it's a long-term commitment.

So one of my continued frustrations is, you know,

organizations that step in and want to do this work,

but don't have the longevity, you know,

they have a commitment,

but it's different than having the longevity

and the courage really, and the budget, right?

To really step in.

And I've been so privileged and fortunate

to work with a few organizations that actually do

and are doing amazing things.

Seeing other organizations come and go, you know,

we want to do this.

And then, you know, sometimes they go

because they're doing their own and they've got momentum

and they're off and they're doing their thing,

which is awesome.

And sometimes it's just like, it stops.

That's a frustration.

And I think what we've seen in the last,

for almost four years,

since George Floyd was killed was a, you know,

a surge in awareness and commitment

and wanting to understand,

and then we're behind where we were before, you know,

because people think they've done the work now.

So those are two of the things that are frustrating.

I know that, for example,

now a lot of body of work we mostly do

with a lot of emotional labor on both sides.

When it comes to that, we've got emotional leads.

How do you balance that,

even you pushed or moved the needle quite a bit

and as an author as well?

Yeah, thank you.

A couple of things, you know, first of all,

I'm starting to really wonder about the word inclusion.

And here's why, compared to belonging, okay?

Inclusion still has an element of come into my world

and I'll make a space for you, right?

And we've moved along.

Like we started with tolerance and then, right?

We've definitely moved the needle

and we will continue to move the needle.

And so inclusion is an important conversation to have,

but I think we need to move past inclusion

because it's not just about invite you into my world

and then let's make sure that you have a space.

What worlds are we creating together?

How are we creating spaces together

so that people can participate fully?

I think it's different.

I think it's a different starting point.

The both and conversation I think is super,

super important in this work.

And I talk in my book about the polarization of race.

I like to use quotation marks

because we know it's a social construct, right?

White versus black, but we have polarization of all kinds.

Men versus women, right?

Old versus young.

Everybody has a pain point, right?

We're human beings.

We travel through the world, we navigate the world.

Some of us experience more barriers and less access.

Some of us experience less barriers and more access.

So the coming together, the healing that I think

that we need to do requires that all of us do our own work

and recognize the impact of who we are on others,

understanding what equity really means,

understanding the isms and how they shape our society

and how we interact.

We have to really dive into our experience,

know that experience, heal ourselves on all of the sides,

right?

Black versus white.

And then what happens?

Here's the magical part, I think.

The magical part then happens when we can create spaces

where we can listen to each other.

Where I can hear your story and open my heart enough

to really hear and ask you questions

and move towards a greater understanding

of your experience.

That's gonna be different than mine in many, many ways,

and similar to mine in some ways too.

And that you can do the same.

You hear my experience, my story, and open your heart.

And then we get to create a space

where we can listen to each other.

And then we get to create something brand new.

Like, wouldn't that be amazing?

We then get to create something brand new.

Not reinventing the old stuff

and try to see how we can push, pull, push, pull.

But something new.

And I'm working on that.

That's my work.

Not reinventing the wheel,

but making the wheel better,

move more through that, say, for people who come after us.

Because I think in that conversation,

parents, they carry so much,

I've seen the work of inclusion

that so much of parenthood is unspoken.

How has that relationship for you

translated into the work itself?

Oh, wow, that's a great question.

A couple of ways.

Maybe more than a couple.

Number one, I recognize the immense responsibility

that I have as a parent to not just teach my child,

because, you know, but to model for my child, right?

And as parents, we model through the things

that we do well, what to do.

And we also model what not to do

by the things we don't do well, right?

So I have had humbling experiences

where my child is like,

but you told me this and you're doing that.

What is going on?

And so that's, you know, I love that.

I love that she challenges me and it's a blessing.

We move through the world differently, my child and I.

And so I have to continuously,

and when I say continuously, like almost daily,

remind myself that the way I do things

and the things that work for me

are not the way that she does things or that work for her.

And if I, as the parent,

say that you should do your homework this way, you know,

like don't play music in the background,

focus on what you're doing.

But she says to me, it really helps me to,

helps me to focus when I have, you know,

music playing in the background.

And I need to create a space for that, right?

I need to hear that.

I need to take that in and I can't be all like,

you should do it this way.

That's also a blessing to remind myself.

And when I forget, she reminds me, right?

Which is exactly what we do in the workplace

with our staff, right?

If you need something to do during a meeting

with your hands to keep, to stay focused,

then I have to find a way to make that work in our meetings.

If you need to get stuff ahead of time

so that you can think about it

because you need to process in order to give me feedback,

I need to prepare my things in advance

and provide you that opportunity.

If you need time to think about it after and share after,

like these are all things that we need to think about.

And the basis is that we are all different

and we all need specific things.

And we cannot assume that we know what somebody else needs

or wants or what experiences they've had.

So we have to talk.

Now, I live with my child.

I get to talk to her all the time.

So there's this continuous feedback group.

We don't have that necessarily with our staff.

How does gentle parenting or the shift of parenting now

impact future roles of inclusion, I'll say?

Or you in that relationship of leaving a legacy

that can be better understood

for people who are coming after us?

Yeah, well, I think by being together

in shared spaces more during COVID,

we sort of the wall has come down.

We don't like, I mean, schools are back in session.

So now, my child goes to school and I'm alone.

I still work at home.

I've always worked at home,

except when I go in to see a client,

but I'm alone all day.

I think what COVID did was it broke the wall down

because we were literally in each other's space

all the time.

And most parents, except for those at home school,

aren't used to that.

So for me, it really made me think,

wow, what's the rule of school?

And I really thought about like,

what did we do before school?

Well, we lived differently and our children learned from us

and they were beside us

and we were doing things together, right?

We had a different way of living

that facilitated that sharing

and passing on of information and knowledge.

And curiosity.

And now we live in a world where I'm doing my work

and you need to take care of it.

Like, don't bother, don't bother mom.

Which creates that barrier, I think.

My daughter would love to help me with my work

and sometimes she does.

She's made signs.

Sometimes she pokes her head into sessions

and sometimes she says really insightful things

while she's walking by.

I really believe that we have a lot to learn

from our children.

And I think our world is structured in a way

that we don't have a lot of time to do that.

Yeah.

I'm thinking now on some of the things

that COVID taught us or that we've learned

or emerged from COVID with.

Besides the health fallout,

a lot of, you alluded to this,

that there was a lot of commitments,

a high peak commitment that really thrust,

I mean, thrust us into a world of promise,

into a world of commitments,

into a world of many things hoping to change.

But I think as, after the post-COVID recovery,

things have gone flat.

How would you say the transition from those commitments

speaks about the leadership,

the value of leadership in driving,

inclusion and belonging?

That's a good question.

You're talking about equity and social justice

and the commitments that we've made.

Yeah.

And how they've translated into the work

that we've started before COVID

and we're continuing after COVID

around equity, diversity, and inclusion.

You know, I have to say that I really,

when COVID happened, I had a moment of hope

that we were gonna figure out how to do community better.

I really did.

I thought we were, I could see it.

I could see people coming together online,

having conversations, those interesting analogies

that people were making.

We're on the same boat.

Not really, but you know, we're all growing in this,

not really.

But I felt like we were starting to come,

to gather again, to remember that human beings are social

and we need each other and that some of us have more

and some of us have less and how can we help, right?

How can we make that gap smaller?

And then it didn't happen.

To our surprise.

You know?

Yeah, to our surprise or not.

It didn't happen.

That was so disappointing.

I think what it has done in organizations,

just with remote work as an example,

is it's allowed people to consider

how to engage people differently.

I've seen the continuation of conversations about

what does remote work allow for people

who may not be able to apply for a job

if they have to move, right?

What talent can we access now

because we've changed our requirements

about being in the office and we've recognized,

I hope, a little bit more about work-life balance

and some of the things that people need that are different.

So I think there has been learning

and I've seen that translate into policies

and practices today in organizations

around those things specifically.

But also I've seen lots of companies going back to you,

you have to be in the office, you know?

You must be here from nine to five.

COVID provided great sensibility,

a great wealth of productivity options as well.

For some people, right?

Not for all people, right?

Because some people had a really hard time

working from home.

There were lots of people in the house.

There was noise.

They had many children.

Like, we don't know,

but to the extent that we allowed people,

well, there was no flexibility during COVID,

but to the extent that we can bring a flexibility now

in recognizing that people's lived experiences

and lives are different

and remote work can really facilitate productivity for some

and can really decimate productivity for others,

those are conversations that we need to keep having

and not just about remote work

because it recognizes difference

and then we can bring that equity piece

into the conversation.

What do you need?

How can I help you to bring your whole self to work,

to be more productive, to contribute?

Am I really hearing what you have to say?

Are you feeling like you can share your perspective?

These are all conversations that we need to keep having.

And I think we started down that road during COVID

because we got this really close up picture of,

oh my gosh, this is impacting all of us.

And then, you know, after a few months, we forgot.

What do you wish we can revisit now

as the most quintessential reality to look at

in terms of waking up now into post-COVID?

For me, it's community and connection, right?

Those two, for me and the work that I do,

those two are intricately linked to creating equitable

and inclusive spaces where people feel a sense of belonging.

Building community is all about

how you're getting to know people.

What structures are you putting in place

to allow people to connect, to get to know each other,

to ask questions, to learn together?

That's what building community means to me.

And what the result of that is, is the connection piece.

If I have opportunities,

not just because we're doing a project together

or I share an office with you,

but really to talk to the people that I work with

and get to, like I did a session yesterday.

So happened that two people in the session

work in the same office.

They were on the same square in Zoom.

And we did an activity around, you know,

share something that people are surprised

to learn about you.

Bandile, they've been working together for three years

and they learned something new about each other, right?

And it was amazing.

They were laughing and they were like,

they were so excited that they had learned this new thing.

Well, imagine what we could do

if we create regular opportunities for people to connect

and get to know each other.

What happens then?

Then we can use that awareness

that we're gaining about each other

to help build spaces where people feel a sense of belonging.

That's the goal.

But we have to have a little bit of fun together.

We have to build a sense of community

that we're all here together,

that we are forming this group that is doing good work.

And we are human beings with lives outside of work,

with fears, with challenges, with things to celebrate.

And we bring all that with us.

Yeah.

And what are some of the hopeful, I think, remedies

that you want to still,

what are the signs of community

and building that connection piece, right?

What are the, they're ready to grab to right now,

the answers that we can grab to today

that would help us move along the needle in that.

And we start those open conversations with colleagues.

Hey, do you see me?

I think what we can do today,

the little tools that people can start to do today

are starting to pay attention

to what's happening in our mind.

Because I really believe that the work that we're doing

starts in here, interrogating our thought process,

and then paying attention to the monologue or the dialogue

that's going on in our own brain about what we see,

who we see, who we're interacting with, what's happening.

So first noticing that that monologue is happening.

Our brain is always feeding us information

and mattering on the background, right?

So if I'm not aware of that, that monologue runs the show.

If I start to become aware of it, I can think to myself,

I can be the observer of what's happening in my mind

and I can associate myself on if what I'm thinking is accurate,

if what I'm thinking is actually what I really feel.

Because that's where assumptions and stereotypes

and prejudice and bias live, in here, right?

And then they come out our mouth

because we're not aware of what's happening in here.

So, I mean, the easiest, and easy, I say easy,

but it's not easy, but the first thing

that people can start to do is start noticing

that internal monologue and catch the thoughts,

the assumptions, catch the stories we're making up

about other people or situations.

Because when we catch those and we hear them,

we can then be like, hmm, is that accurate?

Right?

It's the crack, it's the space that we need

that can stop something from coming out of our mouth

or stop a response and help us to be more thoughtful.

And in that process, we start asking more questions.

For me, what I'm realizing as well,

when you're saying this is, for example,

catching up to the reality of being present.

For example, how we show up as well,

the visibility of our identities

within those conversations and how do we translate

that exchange as well, meaning,

so the intersection has been such a growing touch point

over the past few years,

being so woven into the work.

What would you say is the power

or the much needed room of retreating

to the intersection that you're now?

The power of the room that we're given to intersectionality?

It's so important.

We're not just one thing

and we're not just a combination of things.

We're the way those things intersect and interact.

And I think the more space we have for those

or create for those conversations, the better.

To really explore what it's like to be queer

and brown and female identified and a mom.

Like, how does that,

and then moving to a different country, in my experience.

What does all of that mean in terms of how I show up,

what I need, what I'm going through,

what I have to offer?

I'm so excited that we're having more and more conversations

about intersectionality.

It's fantastic and it's so necessary for this work.

You know, when I was studying this work,

what attracted me was the potential to make a difference.

I think we caught up on the idea about the journey

that it took us to come to where we are today.

And I wanted to ask you as well

about the journey of your authorship

and you articulating your journey

throughout the polarized divide.

How do you now find yourself making it to that journey now?

Well, I'm still in it, you know?

The journey continues, of course.

I ended the book, I mean,

I've been doing EDI work, anti-oppression work,

anti-racism work, you know, the names always change.

For over 20 years, 20 years as a business,

before that as an elementary school teacher,

all of that has shaped my coming to this place.

But alongside that professional journey

has been this personal journey of being biracial.

And the two came together

because I was at a work retreat,

walking along the river in Winnipeg

before we went into the session.

And then I really had to think, how do I bring these two?

How do I bring the personal, the deeply personal, right?

The pain into the work that I do.

I'm still navigating that space.

I'm still learning more and more about that both and space

that I talk about at the end of the book,

because it was, I ended the book where this started.

And how to create that for other people.

How do I create that both and space

where we can do our work, heal, but then come together?

What does that look like?

That's what I'm still, what I'm still working on.

I don't think I would have come to that

if I hadn't really stepped into my own personal work

and my own personal healing because of who I am, right?

So there's that intersectionality piece for me personally,

but then there's the intersection of personal and work

and learning how, and you know, probably, right?

How personal do we wanna get when we're doing our work?

Depends on who we're with, depends on how safe we feel,

depends on the situation.

And when we can do it, in my experience,

when I can really bring that personal in and be vulnerable,

it's super powerful.

There's something about my journey, something, you know,

whether you're biracial or not or queer or not,

there's something about my journey

that will probably resonate.

Something about wanting a sense of belonging,

about not feeling a sense of belonging,

about, you know, not knowing, you know, having to choose.

Those are things that we can resonate with in our own way.

So the personal, bringing the personal in

allows us to do that.

And just saying it to the personal, I know that, for example,

the emotional level that goes into it can lead to sometimes,

I think, a breakdown and sometimes

you get your own self-care.

Yeah.

A few years ago when I started out as well,

I had like a severe case of burn down or burn out rather.

Just always dealing with episodes at the time,

buy in and the wider awareness wasn't available.

So how does your self-care, I think,

now looking into shaping up and modeling that impact of work?

How does well-being or the wellness factor

in and balance itself out in building that impact?

Well, you know, as you've just alluded to,

if I don't take care of myself, I can't do this work.

It's impossible, right?

This work is hard.

It's hard to hear stories every day

of how people feel marginalized

and how they are discriminated against

and how people don't see them and how invisible they feel

and the pain that that causes.

So I need to be, I need to take time

to recalibrate my own self

and clear some of that, right?

Like we're hearing stuff from people,

we're taking that in, taking it into our heart.

I have just rediscovered HeartMath.

Have you heard of HeartMath?

No, what's that among them?

HeartMath, so it's the HeartMath Institute.

I was just listening to something again this morning.

The HeartMath Institute, they talk about heart coherence

and how we can actually change the coherence of our heart.

I'm not gonna do a very good job of explaining it.

So I would just tell your listeners to go to HeartMath,

the HeartMath Institute.

There's an app, you can test your heart coherence,

but it's all about really connecting with our heart,

connecting with our heart space,

which is another thing that I'm trying to do in my work.

This work is not just an intellectual exercise, right?

There are definitely things that we need to learn

and understand, absolutely read, talk about,

but it's also a heart-based exercise.

That's the connection piece,

really acknowledging somebody, really having empathy,

really listening, compassion,

all those things are heart exercises.

They require the heart.

So HeartMath is amazing.

It helps us to be more in coherence with our heart energy.

So that's one of the things that I do,

and meditation and all that stuff,

walking outside, being in nature, hanging out with my child,

those are all things that help me

to be able to stay in the space

and hold space for other people.

We need to create spaces where we can hear each other,

and we need to create spaces where people,

I said it in the beginning,

we need to create spaces where people can heal.

We are all bringing so much trauma to conversations,

and I have two colleagues that do work

in trauma and conversation,

and they remind me all the time

that we bring so much trauma to conversations

that we actually often don't hear the other person, right?

Because what you say gets filtered through my trauma

and then lands in my body in a particular way,

and I relive the trauma.

Well, how can I have a conversation,

and how can we solve an issue

if we're both stuck in our trauma?

It's, I think it's impossible.

So there's the heart piece again, right?

There's the healing piece,

and trauma is a big thing these days.

We're talking about trauma all the time.

So that's good.

How do we release it?

How do we heal it?

How do we acknowledge somebody else's trauma?

I had a woman in one of my classes,

I think it was last year,

an indigenous elder in Haiti,

well, living in Canada, indigenous.

And she said that one of her elders had said to her,

"everyone is doing the best they can

with the trauma they carry."

And I remember that so often

because I'm dealing with my trauma and working through,

and I may or may not even know about it, right?

I may or may not be aware of how trauma is impacting me.

But the other person or people are doing the same.

So what do we need to do to be able to

really acknowledging and hearing

and moving forward together?

Again, it's that different space.

Remember that saying,

you can't solve a problem with the energy

in which it was created?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Just to resonate as well with that trauma,

I remember when we started,

and I started doing the work at the university,

one of my mentors said to me that

the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Would you say that,

that thing is still true now,

looking at the impact and the progress of scale

that we've done globally?

Yeah, the short answer, yes.

Because here's a physical example.

I was listening to an old recording

of Deepak Chopra and Oprah the other day, okay?

1993, Deepak Chopra was talking about cells

and how our cells and how you can control,

your thoughts control what's happening, right?

Your thoughts have energy.

And he said that all the cells in our body regenerate.

So every year or so, our body's completely different, right?

However, if you don't clear the energy that the cell holds,

trauma, pain, holding onto pain,

it transfers it to the new cell.

We're different, but the same.

So we need to release that.

We need to find a way of acknowledging pain,

acknowledging trauma, releasing trauma and pain,

sealing it so that we can really change.

Otherwise, we're just going around in circles.

So what are you most excited about this year?

I am looking forward to building my community.

We bring leaders together who are committed to

equity, diversity, inclusion and belonging,

support them, have some hard conversations,

help them to practice using their hearts.

So I'm excited about growing that community,

continuing work with organizations.

And I'm starting a community for folks who are mixed.

I think for me, what interests you,

what are the some of the questions

that you find people are not asking more about?

I would like to see people asking more questions

about themselves.

What is stopping me?

Why am I not speaking up?

What am I afraid of?

Why am I afraid?

What can I do?

What can I do differently?

Once again, a quick to my mentor.

She say that, you know, if you had 5% more courage,

I'd like to say with our listeners,

and she said, if you had 5% more courage,

what would you do?

Would I stop being less afraid?

Would I say yes more to going outside maybe to,

I don't know, like, 5%, how does that look like?

And throughout the journey, I've always been afraid of,

you know, imposter syndrome, the whole lot.

Maybe my voice is not loud enough in this room.

Maybe I need to speak a certain way,

carry myself a certain way.

I have to behave a certain way, almost culturally,

in different timeframes of doing the work.

And you realize that actually, you know,

if I have 5% more courage,

what does being authentically myself look like?

And that's something that's so scary.

That, you know, I've only woken up to,

I mean, recently through the journey of kindness,

and just understanding how do I relate to the power

of the world and the world's relation to me.

And understanding that intersectionality
as we earlier said.

How would you describe how to build your reflection

in terms of that transition,

if you were to divide almost,

for us to bring ourselves freely to the table?

I think the 5% would be well-served

to help people reduce their fear.

What happens if I say the wrong thing,

and just step into the conversation, you know,

with an open heart?

We're gonna make a mistake, guaranteed.

But if we don't do anything,

that's a bigger mistake, often, right?

So we all wanna do well, we don't wanna hurt people,

you know, we wanna do the right thing.

And because of that, we're so afraid,

we often do nothing.

And what does your 5% look like in the midst of that fear?

Yeah.

My 5% is the same,

because even though I've been doing this work for 20 years,

I'm still afraid of saying the wrong thing,

and messing up, and right?

I'm human.

So same, same, same, you know?

And I'm a person of color in this space,

I'm female-identified in this space.

So all of those parts of my intersectionality,

I think, add themselves to that fear.

What are people gonna say if I say this?

How are people gonna feel?

Like, do I have, you know,

is there room for me to speak up in this space?

So I would, that same 5% reduction of fear applies to me.

Absolutely.

One of the things I hear from folks

around saying the wrong thing is the,

you know, putting out statements,

or, you know, issuing an apology.

Again, one of my colleagues said the other day,

a statement is about, we think it's about our values,

but really people are asking for loyalty.

They're different things.

So I thought that was really, really fascinating.

There is always going to be the chance of making a mistake.

If we are waiting to get things perfect all the time,

we will be waiting forever.

I think that one of the most powerful things

that we need to step into in this work

is really being present with people

so that, not if, when we make a mistake,

we can hear it, hear the feedback,

take in the feedback, acknowledge the feedback,

and apologize, do better, right?

That can be excruciating,

especially if you're in the public eye

while it's happening.

It can be excruciating,

but that connection piece allows our humanity to shine.

Right? How am I hearing you?

What space am I creating to really take in

what you're saying about the impact

that what I said or did had on you?

Underneath everything, everybody wants to belong.

We all have that in common.

So I believe if we speak to that

and we meet people where they're at,

we can crack that hard shell that some people have

that they don't want to see or they don't care or whatever.

I think, you know, over time,

but that's the heart work again.

Thank you so much, Annemarie, for your time.

And joining us on this podcast,

I know it's quite an experience to have a conversation

with you, a very beautiful, kind of experience.

And thank you so much for borrowing us,

your presence and your brilliance on our podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's been a real pleasure to speak with you.

Thank you as well for listening.

And I'll see you next time.