 Loving it. Like McDonald's. That's a good one actually. Loving it. Like McDonald's. Welcome to The Add IDEAS Podcast. And today is no other different day besides us out. Other more ideas to be more creative and to be more inclusive. One of the things that are quite meaningful is disability. Where do you begin?
What do you say and how do you go about it? Well, wonder no more 'cause today I'm joined by an expert himself who has done numerous contributions to the body of work about disability rights, activism. As well as bringing about solutions to life. Bongani Mapumulo, is that right? Close enough? Close. I'll take it. You can, you can correct me as well.
Like, oh, I was, uh, I was supposed to have an H between a u and the m. And then what happened? Yeah. Um, apparently my father was filling out the certificate and um, I think he got excited that he just, you know, got a new son and he forgot it. No, I'm kidding. There are others in my family that don't have ages, so.
Yeah. Yeah. We have, uh, uh, a tribe within the tribe. Yeah. No. Bongani Thank you so much for your time and thank you for joining us today on the show. Yeah. Finally we get to do it. Yeah. After debriefing earlier, like it took us a year to get together. But before the year, we were passing each other for sure. At, at on campus, at university when we were studying together.
Yeah. And one of the things that stood out quite well, and I think many of people who are, who would also probably share the same sentiment, is your rigour and your passion. Yeah. Man. To bring about your real lived, improved lived experience for people, right. Who are not just tackling day to day, but who want to be aspirational in their day to day.
Mm-hmm. Connect us with how. You came about making a difference mm-hmm. Moving the needle. Where do we begin with this ability to unpack that? Yeah. Yeah. In its wide aspect, it's, it's the, it's a, I would say it's a few moving parts, but, uh, I think it first began with observing. Observing how your own life interacts with student life and accessibility of spaces and um, how that influences the way you get to enjoy student life.
'cause I think we can almost agree that. Being in lecture halls and attending classes and all of that is only a fraction of what a student life is about. So most of the life that you're gonna live is actually gonna be outside, you know, meeting people, talking to people, engaging with people, and um, I. Yeah, just experiencing, you know, that part of life.
So in order for that to happen, you know, um, you need to be in spaces, you need to visit friends that are living in different races from, from, from the one you are in. And I remember a very, very close friend of mine, he would always visit me in my residence because there was a lived and he could get to where I stay, but I could never be able to visit him.
Because his residence was, had stairs, basically it is impossible to visit him. Right? So, and then in more you incited other people, uh, you are like, okay, so why some spaces are accessible, you know, more than others, you know, that I think sort of like let that sort of like activism, you know, light, you know, within myself and uh.
You know, I just started thinking, okay, if this affects me, it probably affects other people. So why can't, you know, let me just find ways of bringing some of this stuff more to the fore and have conversations. And you know, I attended a lot of student functions and discussions and I remember, I think you invited me to one of them.
Uh. And to hear, you know, what do other people think? And, um, let's see if we can, you know, push this conversation more to the front. And you know, sometimes if you really wanna see something, you know, get done, sometimes it just helps to do it yourself. I think that's how, um, I. I became involved. And maybe just to add another angle, I stayed in Huis Russel Botman, which is named after the first black Rector, uh, of the, of Stellenbosch University.
And he was really, really big on active citizenship and how he foresaw how the people that live within that residence should understand that they have bigger responsibilities, um, outside of the confines of that. Particular structure. So, um, as the people that live there, we need to believe that we need to make far more change and more impact outside of just our residence.
And yeah, I would say that gave me a lot of belief. And so, um, understanding that I need to be more active and anything that I believe need to be pursued, fight ways of pursuing it. I, I love the fact that your curiosity began with that big question mark. Why are other spaces accessible and others not?
Mm-hmm. And you know, when we speak about space, about disability, it was almost widely encompassing, not just the physical en environment. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But you also touched on the social, that dynamic of it. You know, like you want to have an enjoyable social Yeah, yeah. Life that makes you feel like a part of the ecosystem of humanity.
No doubt. Looking at how the institutional preparedness has prepared you almost in different environment, Stellenbosch itself. Mm-hmm. Correct. To moving across, let's say to UCT. Mm-hmm. What would you say is the nuance that institutions can better prepare to at least create an environment where socially and environmentally ill physically there's better access and mobility in terms of Yeah.
What we have to do. Well, I think layout has a lot to do with it, which unfortunately you don't get to have, you know, much of a say in, for instance. Uh, for people that have been to UCT, they'll understand that it's almost like on a slope, uh, which is like uphill being raised on the mountain. And yeah, and, and of course that's gonna affect.
Base and, um, the way it's, it's, it's, it's sort of like laid out and how the buildings are sort of like structured against each other, you know? So when you look at that in comparison to Stellenbosch, which is, I think it saves each shape like a basin in a way. Mm-hmm. So it's a lot more flat, meaning you can.
Almost, for the most part, for walking people. They can go from, you know, one, one building to another without needing sort of like transport, which yeah, in UCT it's a, it's a, it's a pretty big thing. Um, there are like busses that's gonna take you from place to class and stuff like that, which we didn't really see much of.
In Stellenbosch. 'cause you could simply get where you need to be in a matter of, I don't know, five. To 15 minutes or something like that. So for me, I did live sort of like at extreme ends of the campus because where I stayed think it was on Victoria, like up Victoria and my, my faculty was right in the middle of Merriman.
Right? Sure. So I remember we having conversations with, um, with the disability units at the time, I, I had, I had a manual wheelchair and they're saying, you know. How does this affect how I function? You know? Um, and I remember it was summer, right at the height of February, March, and, and it was hot and, you know, telling about heat can get really, really hot.
So it was affecting how I study, how I function, you know, with my, uh, my academic activities. And, uh, that's when they sort of like started having conversations that, okay, maybe we need a different assistive device that's gonna help you function. A bit more better, or I should say, uh, function more in tune with this layout of, of Stellenbosch campus, which was great because that enabled me to sort of know that, okay, I can reserve sort of like my energy for.
The academic stuff that matters without ne nearly thinking about my physics as much, which with the manual wheelchair, it was basically all on me and, uh, cause it's self propelled. So, yeah, I think, I think from that sort of like angle, it helped a lot. Maybe to some people it might not, uh, you know, make too much sense.
But if you think about a full day where you start, I don't know, at eight and end at uh, four. By the time four o'clock reaches you might just be finished and you just wanna rest or sleep or anything like that. But, you know, student life kind of like, you know, has to carry on. So you gotta think about stuff like that.
And a another fact that you gave us a, a vivid, vivid picture, but I think maybe it might be helpful also just to us understand the biggest challenges that you had to deal with in terms of getting the tech, in terms of getting the access that you need. Yep. Say in terms of confronting different parties to get your life on the road.
Yeah. I, I, I would, I would say my beginnings mm-hmm. With my schooling. 'cause when I think about, you know, in, uh, within disability you have either inclusive education or special needs. Education whereby inclusive, you basically have a mainstream school which is gonna have kids that you know happen to have disabilities, but they are basically all.
Within one setting. Right? Then you have special needs education whereby everyone has a disability of some sort, right? Meaning you don't have to worry about, you know, things that have to do with access and, and, and, and, and lifts and things like that because the layout is. Set up for everyone, you know, to sort of like, be able to function and, and, and, and drive in a way.
So yeah, the issue of difference is almost like a non-entity. Right. However, um, universities aren't like that. Mm-hmm. You know, it's a melting pot of every Yeah. And you might find that, um, you know, um, the people that are around you have never interacted. In any way with someone, you know, with a disability of any kind.
It's like you're at a, a, a very, very interesting sort of like juncture of how, how are you gonna function? So one element that tends to help when it comes to, uh, functioning the assistive technology, and we had to, and I'm saying we as in as a student and um, along with the office, that sort of like coordinates access and functionality for students at the time.
Um, the disability unit had conversations with sort of like my sponsors and to say, okay, we have a student who's like this. Um, you know, we know that you are already paying for, for his tuition and resident and all of that. However, for him to function better, this is what we need to think about. And, um, I guess I can say that it was a, it was a privilege that those conversations went, you know, very, very well and they were able to, to source, um, an electric wheelchair for me.
And I remember meeting sort of like those sponsors, uh, 'cause I think they, they, they came around like, uh, during the course of the year just to, you know, check on how their investment is going anonymously, you know, and, um, yeah, I, I, I found that it was, um, you know, a, um, a foundation of, you know, a family from years ago that.
Actually seek out students that are sort of like in, in situations similar to myself and they sort of like helps with grants and, but obviously you have to be in some sort of like education setting of some sort. Mm-hmm. So I guess I was in the right place and uh, and I think it held that they can tell that you are trying to do something with your life.
Not just educating yourself, but you're trying to make a difference. To other people that are probably in a similar situation with yourself. I think even that was an introduction to how communication communicating is important just for your own needs and, and, and, and to be able to advocate for other people's needs.
So the fact that they were able to take care of me in that way, it also that active citizenship. But I think, you know, you gotta be able to do more and you gotta try and do more. 'cause the more you are able to do for yourself, the more you can be able to do for others. You touched on certain important aspect.
I think. I know we caught on. About reasonable accommodation. Mm-hmm. And you talk about agency as well in terms of that relationship as well. Um, or the world of work response or the institutional response to it and what is exactly, is reasonable and what is accommodation. Yep. Maybe invite us to that journey to how, what is reasonable accommodation within this context and how do become more inclusive?
Yeah. It's a very, very burning sort of like subject because it tends to be sort, sort of connected to resources. Um, in a sense that an institution understand sometimes that there is a need for a specific, uh, form of assistance, but it's also has to function with the confines of what is available or what is possible.
What, what, what is reachable in terms of finding resources to help? You know, I can't speak too much on how the world of work. Um, functions, although I've heard some stories about how for some employees with disabilities, for instance, they tend to have problems with being able to adjust or adapt to the, uh, sort of like workplaces because you find that, uh, employer will say, um, yes, we believe in equality, which means, you know, we want to help our employees, you know, feel like part of, you know, uh, the workforce and, you know, they.
Use terms like family and things like that. Quote. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but if you look at it from a point of view of equity, right? Equity is actually about what are your specific needs as. Um, an individual as opposed to equality of which we are just gonna help, you know, everyone with however that we think, you know, um, the people need of which ones.
Once you talk about equity, then it has to be a conversation. Mm-hmm. You know, you can't just simply say, we think this is what you know, um, you need and this is what we can provide. But rather, let's have a conversation about how can we help you function better. How can we help you thrive in this environment?
Because if me, as an individual, an employee, or, or, or, or who is part of the system now, if I can function better, I can produce better, you know, which I'm able to contribute to this workplace. For me, that is how I tend to look at how reasonable accommodation is. However, I think it's a conversation that should be ongoing 'cause I think it can always be better.
Yeah. And, and, and I know that you had demonstrated, I think in your response that, you know, the education has been largely on marginalized. I mean, you look at different camps of not just as a particular, there's also like the invisible part of it, you know, that people are also scrambling with now, neurodiversity being the, the band or the catchall of neuro-inclusion, or how we can be better in the space.
Who should be driving the education of how we can be, do it better? Mm-hmm. Um, it's hard to think it should be one class or one group because I think we need each other in some way. True. For instance, I will, I will make a reference to the experience with Stellenbosch as much as, for instance, they would say, this is what we can, you know, help you with, but.
It would be in partnership with it. You know, that could, you know, that would be able to tell me that, okay, this is what we have available and this is how we can help this. This is what we can provide for you to, to be able to function better. So yeah, if I would say who should be in charge of the conversation, I would say as the users.
It's important that we are involved. 'cause I think it helps when we co-create, produce things that are, that we can take sort of like collective ownership of. If you think that as, um, I don't know, as a tech person or as a tech, uh, provider or a design of some sort, you can just say, okay, whatever I read on paper is what I'm gonna provide just as is.
You might fall short or you might miss something. I think when you have, uh, the end users in mind or in the room or, or as part of the conversation, I think it tends to help have a better product or have a better outcome. Mm-hmm. You know, so, yeah. I, really, really believe in collective ownership.
Participation, and I think it also helps with network. For instance, currently, God, this dips a little bit into this, dips a little bit into my research. Um, my current research, for instance, I'm part of the, um, the Bertha Center for Social Innovation and Entrepreneurship. However, the angle of assistive technology.
It touches on health and medical technology, which is almost like another department, which is, I think it's called UCT MedTech, if I'm not mistaken. I'm also interested in ethics, you know, of how does, how do we use technology for good, and that's a completely different. Sort of like department where there's a part of me that wants to find a way of how do I get these departments to speak to each other, which is something that I'm really, really, really excited about.
I'm kind of doing like a literary review to see how I can find the connections between the literature. But I think within the short term, sort of like a short term goal that I have is to get the staff and the units and the departments to sort of like understand how they can co-create and how they can help sort of like figure out similar problems using ideas from different departments.
'cause I believe the more ideas you have. The more resources you have when it comes to problem solving? Yeah. I think within, you know, sort of like my immediate space currently, it's something that I'm really, really excited about. Yeah. And I think touching on that take, I think, yeah, I remember you, you highlighted such a, a beautiful example about how not only has it been transformative to, not to to neurotypical or able bodied people.
Yeah. Like for example, with the Braille system. Right. Mm-hmm. That was introduced and now the QWERTY keyboards are mimicking largely the Braille system? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, how, how, how do we now move that mindset of globalizing solutions in tech? Mm-hmm. Um, and in and driving that innovation piece to cultivated culture.
Yeah. Yeah. That is, that, that is such, such such an interesting question. 'cause just last week, past, I wasn't part of the panel discussion myself, but I was in the audience. Mm. And um, we were talking about. Well, I wanted to engage them on South Africa as a resource constraint, sort of like context where technology tends to be hard to access because it's expensive, needs to be imported, you know?
So yeah, a whole lot of resources have to go into it, and when that happens, it tends to cost. A bit more, and I'm guessing it's gonna cost more with these trade wars happening even, even more. Yeah. Yeah. Where does the tech come from, by the way? With, with the tariffs? Where does it come from? Where do we import from it?
It's different parts of the world. Okay. Uh, sometimes it could be Europe, sometimes it can be America. Depending on how unique or or specific that particular take is. However, what I learned to, uh, or what I learned recently is there are a whole lot of innovations that are actually coming out of the country simply because.
The question has been asked of what are we gonna produce as a country for our own context sort of thing, you know? Because I think if we understand that in order to help our own people, we need to understand them, you know? But in order to do that, well, we need to research and, uh, we need to go out there and find that information and the data and all the important sort of like, components that go into developing stuff.
I think it's not only gonna help us as a country, however, it's also gonna help other countries that are similar to us because as, as, as, as a, as a, as an environment, we are not that different from. Most other, so-called third or second world, you know, where accessing technology is very, very expensive.
However, there is a, a, a huge need, uh, whether from a health point of view or disability point of view, and we can build that knowledge that's, it's gonna count in our favor, in, in, in a sense that we are building assets. So, yeah, like that department has biomedical. Engineers, it's, uh, it has doctors, it has, uh, technologists and, and, and, and, and people like that, which I'm very, very fascinated to, to meet.
Also, it also helps to find out who rights in what point of view. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Because, because, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because my, my experience is gonna be different from yours. True. Um, your perspective and your point of view, you know? Um, lived experience and things like that. I think those things matter a whole lot because I think they tend to decide or gear how the narrative is gonna be, uh, shaped.
And just in terms of like power dynamics and power imbalances, I. Because I happen to believe that the users matter a lot, especially if you're designing something that's gonna be in the hands of those people. It has to be something that's gonna be helped over a long period of time. Part of my research is exactly about that.
For a low middle income country like ours, underserved or under resourced, communities matter a lot. I remember just leaving that event. The lady that was assisting me there, because this was the first time in the building, she was like, uh, you realize that you are, you are speaking for a lot of people. And I was like, it's been like that for years.
Mm-hmm. So I'm, I, I guess I'm somehow used to it, but it's, it's one of those things that it tends to be a privilege in some way and tends to be something else in other contexts, but I just tend to look at it as. It's having a, an opportunity to make some sort of social change, and it's something I, I, I happen to, to enjoy doing.
Talking about the difference in lived experiences and finding resonance. I mean, intersectionality is one of the biggest tools that we use in the field to, to evangelize a lot. It's the bandwagon too, about so many things that every committee wants to win with. As difficult as, as difficult as it is. 'cause it's quite nuance.
Somebody gotta do it. I'm one of those people. Yeah. No man. I think for, from an intersectional perspective, I think you've contributed also to how sexuality is also informed. A masculinity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it's directly proportional to, to your lived experience in within one lens. Perhaps you may correct me if I'm wrong.
What would, what would you be thinking the approach should be around sexuality or masculinity? Hmm. From your lived experiences as well? Mmmm Yeah. That was also one of the most fascinating, uh, studies that I was ever, I got, you know, the privilege to be part of. 'cause up until that point, I didn't really think about it all that much.
Like what goes into how I see myself, you know, it's one of those things that you don't really think about up until someone asks, you know, why do you behave the way you do when you interact with the woman? But you don't do the same thing with. With a guy. Mm-hmm. Why do you believe culturally, for instance, she should behave a particular way when it comes to you as a man?
Right. And that is before you even include a matter of being a black zoo, speaking disabled man from, you know, from with a particular conservative background and things like that. So I remember just, you know. Just having all of these questions and thinking how the hell I'm gonna write this thing. Yeah, because, 'cause I've taken on the project now.
Yeah. Like, I can't drop it. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, um, my core, lemme call them co-authors. They've, they've given me this thing with, uh, with an expectation that I'm gonna produce something. I think one of my. First few lines even, even even, uh, when I wrote that this is an ongoing sort of like exercise. It's possible that if I get an opportunity to write about it in the future.
It might come out a whole lot differently. However, I was gonna try and capture where I was at the time, mentally. So yeah, I just started looking into stuff about alphas and what hegemonic, masculinities are, patriarchy, and you know, and, and, and, and, and, and why. Is then even, um, you know, a hierarchy when it comes to what, what kind of masculinity is, is prioritized over the other.
Mm-hmm. And how as men, sometimes we put ourselves in those sort of like, classes and groups, as opposed, when I see, you know, such and such financially, it puts them into this group. And, you know, if, um, to not have as much resources, you're gonna be at the bottom and physically in terms of what you're able to do.
Like, take something like sports, for instance. Mm. You know, which is something that is a, is an ambit way, physical shape and excellent in, in inability. It's something that is expected, but in sexuality terms, it's something that is almost like, you know, top of mind. Yeah. Yeah. It makes, you know, it makes a man attractive.
So, and now you start thinking, okay, I haven't done much sports in my life. Does it mean I'm not attractive? You know. You know? Yeah. And just started thinking like, how do, yeah, may, may, maybe if I got a chance to, you know, to do interviews and things like that, because that, that, that's not what I did. I merely just went through literature use a little bit of my own lived experience to try and find answers to that.
So what does dating life now look like given that investigation, given that thought pre process? I would, I would, I would say I, I think I arrived at a point where. I started searching more sort of like within, when it comes to, uh, how I'm gonna make sense of my own makeup, because I don't know, when I think about just.
If you search externally, you might be searching for a very long time. 'cause you're gonna be going, okay, this is what's supposed to fulfill me. This is what is supposed to bring some form of happiness. Yeah. Or some sort of validation, you know, as opposed to when my father, for instance, was when he was still alive, what did he think was special about me?
If he can look at this. Disabled boy and think he has something to contribute to the world. I can't, I can't allow the external world to sort of like, downplay that and, and, and make me think that I have less to contribute. I think from that point of view, I wouldn't say I started, you know, regarding myself as the, as the best thing out there, but you know.
It help with building a stronger sort of like identity where I don't feel like someone else needs to affirm. What I have or what I, what I'm about. You know? I think, yeah, I think, I think we all will take some sort of losses in life. Mm. You know, it's just, it's just part of growing and it's part of living.
But I think what I tend to lean more toward is just my own personal story and understanding that, you know, if my life didn't matter, I would've got shots and I would've, I would've just died. But the fact that it didn't happen, and, um, I'm still around and, uh, you know, some of the things that I've been, I've been able to do have helped other people.
Uh, and some of the stuff that I write about. Other people read and, you know, get touched by it and, and, and, you know, it is, it is a way of touching other people's lives and I think that's what it's all about. Uh, I think maybe from an FAQ basis, I'm sure you've en engaged with a lot of questions. Probably most of my FAQs you have, you probably have like a script like, uh, reply number one.
Uh, what are some of the key questions that you feel that maybe. Uh, part and parcel of a broader eco ecosystem problem or a part of the solution itself. Questions are wrong. Maybe your identity or how you now navigate different spaces given your own affirmations as well. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, the unfortunate thing sometimes about pursuing and trying to actualize, you know, um, ideas that you really feel passionate about is that it really tends to put you in rooms where, for the most part you might be the only thing, might be only person that looks like you.
Mm-hmm. For instance, currently, like, like, I don't know whether I mentioned, but I'm at the GSB four days a week because part, part of signing up as much as. The GSB being graduate growth business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I should have, I should have said that. The whole thing. Yeah. Um, Hey, it's s either use abbreviations.
Yeah. I'm part of this community now ecosystem. Um, yeah. Part of, part of me becoming, you know, part of sort of like that environment is. Visibility simply because it's, it's a, it's a, it's a space that have been, that has been, I don't wanna say like quintessentially white, but definitely able bodied. Vast majority.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For instance, in, in my class, I'm definitely only, you know, person with the physical disability. And I spoke to the, the librarian who has been there 20 something years and, um, she says the last person who was a wheelchair user, I think was. I don't know, early thousands or something like that.
And he was injured leading up to classes, meaning either he is not a permanent wheelchair user, so to speak. So basically I'm the first wheelchair user to, to go there. So I find myself in rooms where. Like, I'm literally the only person who is like myself. And I'm, for instance, I'm currently doing ma a master's.
Most of the functions that I go to a PhD is so common that people will automatically think you also got one. Mm-hmm. Just simply because we are, we are, we are in this, all in this space together. So part of it, I think it's good 'cause it, it's, it's, it's it inspiring 'cause you can interact with them as peers.
As opposed to there, up here you are down here. It also also reminds you that, you know, maybe you still have some distances to cover. However, hard I find really gratifying is when I speak to them s as I share my story and sometimes I share my research, they all tell me you have something available to contribute and I should never feel insecure about, you know, whether it's a background or whether it.
How I look or, or whatever, you know, insecurity that comes with, you know, being myself, that I should own up to who I am. And what did Miss s essay say? Uh, the, uh, the current one? No, no, no. The one who recently got married, um, that it should take up space. Yeah. And she's right. You know, um, you don't think about that, you know such things up until you are in a space where you feel like a little bit out of place and, but now you almost forget.
What has brought you there? There's a reason. Yeah. Like our, our, our program director is very, very intentional about reminding us that you are selected for a reason you belong here. She also said, she also said something that is even more interesting. She said, uh, you need to. You need to make as much money so that we can get much, much money from you.
Yeah. And be a donor. Wow, okay. Yeah. So I basically need, yeah, money to, to feed more people, which is not a bad idea, but it also spoke to the fact that there are basically more resources if. When you are intentional about what you wanna do. Mm. Meaning stop thinking about, I don't have this, I don't have that, therefore I can't pursue, which sometimes tends to be a stumbling block for most, for most people.
And I don't know whether there's a space for a personal story. Yes, please. Yeah. Um, so leading to this year, right? I apply just like everyone else and, you know, I'm waiting and waiting and waiting, you know, anxiously and then, you know, it's crazy. It doesn't, it wasn't even a letter, it was an SMS. Oh, congratulations.
Into the program, and then I think it said, see you next year, Jan, or something like that. Mm-hmm. Something's all casual. I'm like. Really can't challenge it. Is it, is it crap? Is it legit? Exactly. You know, and I'm thinking, okay, I need to confirm this somehow anyway. Um, but now I start having those question, okay, how, how am I gonna pay for this thing?
Mm-hmm. You know, I, I definitely don't have money for myself. I need to find a way to get in plus. They have what is called a deposit for, for the cost, which are not cheap, by the way. No, it's 25 grand to be specific. 25 grand. I'm like, wow, I never needed a deposit back in Stellies. And who is people think they are just to contextualise that deposit.
Was it different pricing for you because you need different access or is it No, no, no, no. It's for everyone. Alright. Yeah. Everyone, um, for you to get on the class list. Sure. They need 205K. Anyway, I start thinking, I start thinking, okay, um, alright, I'll, I'll apply for stuff. 'cause obviously there's, there're always, you know, president scholarship out there and stuff and, which is great.
However, most of were saying like, wow, we'll give you an answer in December and blah, blah, blah. And they had a deadline. I think this was September or so I'm applying, but I go back to them and I'm like. Okay guys, like, you know, thanks, thanks for the place in the program and whatnot, but I don't, I don't have this, this deposit fee.
However, I've applied for things and you know, I have a lot of hope, you know? Mm-hmm. They're like, yeah, we don't usually do this, but you know, we'll give you extra time. Yeah. Anyway, earlier I spoke about the foundation that helped me. With my first electric wheelchair. Mm-hmm. Right. I think of them and I still had the information.
What's the name of that found if you, do you feel comfortable sharing? It's, it's, it's Emily F-U-C-H-S Foundation. Okay. Okay. Carl & Emily Fuchs Foundation, I think they were a couple, Carl & Emily Fuchs Foundation, amazing people. Mm-hmm. I sent, I sent an email to them and I'm like. Um, you guys helped me in my undergrad and I'm now doing a master's at UCT, you know, Graduate School of Business.
And yeah. I'm thinking, oh my God, the amount of documentation these people are gonna ask me for anyway. Course, that's what happens when you, when you are, you know, applying for funding, you know, you're gonna have to submit stuff. Simple email back. All right, how much do you need? I send that then. Okay. We're gonna have a meeting in, I think end of October.
Mm-hmm. So we'll let you know by middle of no of November. November comes, I get a phone call. He's the director of the foundation. Ah, thank you for reaching out to us. We have 50,000 for you. Oh. I'm like, wow. We're gonna give you a letter. You're gonna blah, blah, blah. Just, you know, get us use, uh, banging details.
I'm like. I'll do whatever this dis deposit fee. Yeah. All right. Look, it's 50 grand maybe to somewhere else be like, ah, it's not a lot. Okay. Probably, probably isn't because, you know, not a lot. The cause is, is 170 something. It gets me in. That's all I need. So, you know, that happens and I'm really, really, really grateful.
I go back to them, you know, um, you know, share my, uh, my gratitude and everything. But of course I still have the, you know, the other exposure. I don't know, I'm not good at this counselling thing, but, you know, I still, I'm still gonna hold the university basically anyway, three weeks into this year, um, after classes and, you know, I attend conferences because I, I, I enjoy being amongst.
You know, people that study what I study because, you know, you, you meet interesting people and also you get to find what are other interesting topics out there. Maybe it can help reshape your research question or, you know, anywhere along those lines. So I do a lot of that. And, uh, summer during the course of that, I meet.
The director of, um, this place, the Bertha Centre for Social Innovation & Entrepreneurship. Okay. Yeah. So now I'm being an ambassador. Yeah. And, you know, it doesn't just, uh, ask me, well, you know, what my life is about and, you know, um, how I ended up here and what also what people tend to ask the most when they see somebody they don't. Or maybe someone who's in a situation where they don't interact with people like that on a daily, they ask like, so how is the access here?
You know, how are you experiencing the space? And da, you know, I tell them like, Hey, I see that the Rams are new. Yeah. Because of you. What took you guys so long? And like, nah. You know, it's something we should fix long time. Anyway. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm digressing. Yeah. Um. I get to, you know, know the director quite well.
I get to, you know, hear her background and yeah. Anyway, one of the mornings I'm in the GSB she calls, unfortunately, I'm in a meeting with, with another lecturer 'cause I'm still trying to find a supervisor. And then later on she send me a text that, you know, um, she needs to talk to me or whatever. Um, like, wow, would the director be looking for me?
I'm thinking maybe it should be part of a, you know, work group or panel discuss. Yeah. Yeah. Something it turns out. She had a scholarship for me. Wow. A hundred and something 40, blah. They only had one full the class. Wow. And I got it, you know? Anyway, the point, congratulations on that. Thank you. Thank you.
You, congratulations. The point, the point I'm just trying to make is sometimes when you wanna pursue stuff. The question of resources sometimes overwhelms us to a point of inaction. Sometimes you just need to start, just go for the thing. If you can, if you can find food that's gonna take you to the next day, just do that.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. The next day would, I don't know, I, I, I, I, I, I embody that sort of like mantra our way. It's like tomorrow we've sort it sort itself out. You know, um, if these ideas are, are burning in my head to a point that I can, you know, go from week to week, everything will sort of, you know, take care of itself, so to speak, so.
Mm-hmm. But I just wanted to get a better, perhaps a better picture, because I know you earlier highlighted that, you know, someone said that you, you are like a board representation of so many people mm-hmm. Who want to be in the similar position of the agency, right? Mm-hmm. Um, what would you say is. More needed for part of representation to be much more a grassroot thing instead of any chance or once in a life opportunity that we now see in the world.
Like more people like myself. Yeah. Like more people just, you know, coming up and you know, normalizing inclusion basically. That's what I'm saying because you know, we live in such a world where it's n entity DI right now and we don't know how long that net sentiment will last. And it's easier for people, for more people to have their own ways to come about.
Yeah. Um. It's hard to think how can it be done, sort of like systemically. Mm-hmm. No matter how we look at the world, you know, this, this, this inequality thing is pretty serious. It's big. Yeah. Just 'cause we have X amount of millionaires and billionaires doesn't make us No. Like you have someone today who doesn't know what they're gonna eat.
Mm-hmm. Like it's just a reality. Poverty again is a, is a real thing. Mm-hmm. You know, um, it's one of those just unfortunate realities that. You, you know, I, I, I come from a sociology background and we studied a lot about that kind of stuff. And you know, as you'll know, South Africa is literally was one of the un unequal, you know, um, sets in the world.
So from that point of view, um, it's really, really hard to imagine how. You equalize representation. However, my personal story, I tend to look at it from a point of view of background, where you come from, the people that believe in you, the people that will say despite the barriers and and the obstacles that sort of like stand in your way.
What do they do when those stumbling blocks happen? For me, I would say. As a, as a, as a as a kid. And I never really used to understand what he meant, but my father, and I'm paraphrasing, but he used to say something along the lines of, you're not gonna need legs to succeed. I think he was saying that in comparison to my brothers, because I have, I have four brothers in my family and I'm the only one who, who, who went to boarding school.
Mm-hmm. So I'm the one who was like. Taken outside of the family settings or everyone would be home out all the way in boarding school. So I think it was his way of trying to make me feel like I, I, I'm strong enough to take on what, what I was facing at the time. So I'm bringing up influential figures because I think when we have.
People that believe in us, we, we, we tend to believe what they say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even, even, even if sometimes it's like, like you, you really not sure where they're getting what, what, what they're saying from. But if your mother or your father, whoever that's very close to you says you are made to make a difference out there in the world, you tend to believe them.
Um, and sometimes it doesn't mean there's a whole lot of resources that need to go behind it. Mm. Just for them to say those important things when you need to hear that, because for me, that helped me believe that, you know, as I said, I, I went to a special school, so I. It made me believe that there's a bigger world out there.
Mm-hmm. You know, like my world, my, like, my, my life is not gonna end here. And I also learned that it was a privilege that I had access to physios and psychologists, for instance, that sort of like built all of those things from a very, very early age, like six, seven, you know? Mm-hmm. Which I've also learned that unfortunately not everyone has access to true, you know?
Mm-hmm. So if we say we need more. Bongani, I would say let's build more facilities with people that believe in those kids, because I think the earlier you build kids' minds to believe that, you know, um, they have a role to play out there and they can make a difference and they can pursue things that seem impossible.
I don't understand. Like a motivational speak. Yeah. But you know, um. You know, just to do stuff that feels insurmountable sometimes, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like, um, like you, you need. Those people that are gonna see that early in you and, 'cause even if you, you know, you meet challenges along the way, you're gonna be like, ah, there's, there's it one teacher though, you know?
Mm-hmm. Who always believed that I got, I have something to contribute. And, um, that matters a lot when you, you, you, you come across, you know, challenges and problems in life. So, yeah, for me, I would say those influencer figures are really, really important. If they're not in the home, in the schools, in, in, in, I don't know, the churches or.
You know, sports clubs or whatever, you know, but yeah, for me, those voices matter a whole lot. Yeah. And I, and, and, and I know that, you know, these with such topics, there's so much to talk about. Yeah. And there's always little time,
which is good. Which is good. It means we have conversation covering on, you know. Um, but I think for us as a, as the last part of, of this discussion, yeah. What would you say is the most compelling message that perhaps people are not hearing enough of and should hear more of? That I would say that they are, there are answers within places that you might least expect them to come from and yeah, I think maybe I'm wearing my researcher hat here.
I. Sometimes we think with all the books and the, the journals that we, that we study and, you know, all the material that we need to, that, that we have to go to. And that, that's important. 'cause obviously you're not gonna pass without that. Yeah. But sometimes it's about just reaching out to the people that you might think are not participants in, you know, the general broader world that that happened.
A lot for me in Stellenbosch for instance, when, um, when I was a participant in other people's projects and they just wanted to hear my voice. Like, that's like, you know, we're just gonna, we have these questions, we just want to hear what you think. And, 'cause I would say it built me to believe that, you know, I have something to say.
So if I've got something to say, surely there are other people with, you know, something to say. So I need to find those because I believe they will be able to make my journey and my contribution was that much more than I can do if I'm only focusing on the dominant voices. And a lot of what I'm doing currently has got a lot to do with find those unheard voices.
And yeah, and I think it speaks to the point you mentioned earlier about, you know, let's blow this representation thing as. Much as we can, because like I said earlier, the more voices we have is the more ideas we have is the more resources we have. Mm-hmm. And, um, there are all of the problems in the world.
However, um, with more ideas, it means we can bring more solutions in the world. Then the more contributions you have, the more you are able to tackle them. Nothing for us, without us. I once again, some, something along those lines.
So thank you so much, Ali, for having us joining us today on this. This was really good. So thank you so much for having us as well, and thank you for your time. Yes, I know. It's, it's been an incredible challenging time for us, but thank you so much in this mayday of of war. Yeah. But thank you. But thank, thank you for letting me know that.
I was supposed to the to be the first in this. Yes. That's what is, because I know people are not gonna believe me when I say it. Yeah. So it's all record way we do say Exactly. Exactly. Because I remember when you were starting this thing and I was like. Wow. Someone I actually quite know is doing podcasting.
How cool is that? You know? Yeah. Because, uh, you know, normally when you look at this thing, like on YouTube or TV or whatever, you're like, wow, there must be something special about those people, you know? And now you can be like, no, someone you know is special. You know what I mean? They have taken the. Hmm.
You know, the step to actually, you know, um, start this thing and, and, and, and they're actually doing it. And I'm a big fan of starters, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause sometimes you don't have answers, but it's like, I want to just try this thing out. Mm-hmm. And, um, so yeah. Kudos. Thank you so much. Thank you. Kudos for, for going for it.
Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you also for joining us for today's conversation. As always, it's always a pleasure to have your ear time with us. Yeah. And please stay tuned and keep space. Yeah. Thank you so much as well. Yeah, shout out. I'll give, I'll give a shout out in the socials.
Thank.
