I know that our first connection was through a business relationship.

And I remember immediately thinking to myself, hey, this is a person that I want to have

a conversation with about not just only about helping understand the business scene and

how actually business works in the Western Cape.

But I know, for example, you've had a long run into the space.

So please tell us a bit about that.

So I run a digital agency.

It started as just like a graphic design agency.

And then I started basically from Varsity.

It was sort of like a side hustle thing, just to make like little money there and there.

And then as time went on, it developed into a proper business.

So I remember when I started, I was literally just chilling by a computer, just playing

around designing like posters and stuff.

And then this other guy was a DJ.

He saw me designing and he's like, hey man, can you please do this for me?

So I was like, okay, cool.

He kept on coming back and then first year I was just doing like stuff for free, just

for the fun of it.

And then the following year I started charging.

I think now we have been running for about 10, 11 years.

But yeah, first year was like that.

Second year I started charging.

And then as I monitored the industry, I saw that any Tom, Dick, and Harry is not like a graphic

designer.

Everybody's designing posters.

I was like, you know what, I need to sort of find a niche so that I don't become part

of the saturated industry.

So I started tapping into branding.

I did branding, logos, letterheads, business cards and so forth.

Time went on, that industry also started getting saturated as well.

So then I was like, okay, I need to tap into events because that's where you actually get

to mingle with people and build like a wider network.

So that's where we introduced events such as Black Friday.

And I think in describing the niche process or the reiteration of the niche, how would

you say that now with AI, with technology, making it easier for people to find their

own niche at the tip of the finger hand, what would you say coming into this decade now,

into this year of change, would you say a new way of finding a niche as an entrepreneur

is or how does that look like now?

I mean, for me personally, I feel like AI has simplified and helped a lot of people, especially

people who own businesses, small businesses, just to put a radar onto it.

I know a lot of people are scared of AI, but actually I feel like AI is your best friend

because for me personally, it helps me a lot when it comes to copywriting.

So I don't necessarily see it as a challenge, even as a designer, because I know you can

use AI to generate a logo.

And I've tried it and I'm like, I don't like these logos.

I don't like these logos.

Like I literally went on to ChatGPT and I tried to generate a logo.

I gave it like a full description of what I'm trying to come up with because I was trying

to understand what I'm competing with as a designer and the suggestions that it gave

me are quite generic.

So look, they're trying, but I don't feel like they did.

There's still space for designers.

I feel like you're not going to get a logo that is as personalized from AI as you would

from an actual designer.

So in as much as like when it comes to content writing, copywriting and so forth, it's top

tier when it comes to that, but you still need to touch up your text there and there

just to make it sound more human.

Because the one thing that you don't want is to sound robotic online because people

can pick it up, that it lacks personality.

From learning from the cleaning from also our relationship in the past, I think two

years or three years, actually, since we've met.

Looking at now at this scene, I'm trying to just oppose it, 10 years ago, maybe when

you started the agency and coming into the 10 years after, what is the juxtaposition

or what is the difference, for me to say, from the scene of the entrepreneurship space

that you now find yourself in now?

For me, obviously, networking.

That's number one.

And the second part is actually the foundation of networking is diversity.

If you go to university, make sure that you make friends with everybody from whatever

faculty.

Because what happens when you do that, if I'm a designer and I meet, say, a bandit who's

say like you are an engineer, I make friends with you, then I make friends with someone

else who's starting to become a doctor and so forth.

You understand?

What happens is when that person is thinking of starting a business and they need branding

done, who's the first person they're going to think of?

They'll be like, oh, okay, cool.

I know an AV from back in varsity.

He used to do this thing.

Let me call him because they still have your number.

And then you do the stuff.

Once you do the stuff, once they're happy, they refer you to other people.

So that becomes its own network in that industry.

So the more people you make sure that they're happy, it basically, it helps you in growing

your network.

The difference between then and now is my network is a lot bigger.

I can say that.

Number two is I've learned not to be a jack of all trades because when I started, I was

into events, I was doing graphics, I was doing videos, I was doing branding, I was managing

artists, I was doing so many things.

And you spread yourself thin.

Like I literally spread myself thin and I was like, you know what, actually I need to

focus on a niche and just stick to it.

So that's when I ended up dropping events because events require a lot of time.

I dropped artist management, I stopped talent management, I just focused on the design and

web development.

From the onset, we were just doing like graphics.

And then I think the one thing that I decided to stick to is web services, which encompasses

SEO, management, web design, web development and so forth, you understand, because that's

where the space is going into.

I mean, even though there's AI, you will still need a web designer.

Yes, you will get like a few AI applications that can build a website for you, but it's

still not going to be as good.

So I'm just focusing on the tech side of the business.

And one of the things that I noticed is that in South Africa, we have a huge untapped market,

even just from a GBP perspective, which is Google Business Profiles.

There's a lot of people that don't have Google Business Profiles.

You look at markets in your real areas.

Like if you go to a real area and you are looking for a certain service, you have to

know someone in that space that will tell you, okay, if you turn a corner, if you go

to this corner, you turn here, you go right in whatever, you're going to find a shop that

does ABC.

That's an untapped market that literally people like us, we can actually go there, find the

coordinates, put that person up on Google.

And then if you happen to be looking for someone who makes aluminum windows, you can do that.

Like when I was helping my mom with fixing the house, I was looking for a person who

does aluminum windows.

I couldn't find a single person.

Literally up until I had to ask a friend who still stays there, like, guy, do you know

someone who does this?

He's like, yeah, yeah, there's a guy in town.

In town, imagine.

They don't even have a Google Business Profile.

And I'm like, people don't understand how much market they're actually losing.

What's the first space you go to when you are looking for a service in a place that

you're not familiar with?

It's Google.

So why don't you create a profile?

And touching on, I know it's elsewhere, but Google recently came from market dominance.

I mean, the Congress is now trying to separate Google from other services, given that it's

like accounting for 90% of online searches.

Do you think that with that growing dominance, with other entrepreneurs who are probably

looking to start other like engines, all have a digital presence?

So which would be the first step, for example, to counter that dominance for survival as

an entrepreneur, not just as a digital space, but in other spaces?

I don't necessarily think that we should fight Google for its dominance.

Honestly speaking, if you ask me, I'm like, just let them be.

It's like, you don't try to fix or change something that works, because it works.

I know that Microsoft is becoming a bit of a competitor with the partnership they have

with ChatGPT.

I know there's a few people who have tried to start their own search engines.

It's going to be a long mile for them to basically even try to compete with Google.

So I feel like Google has this thing on the niche.

They know what they're doing.

Even with ChatGPT, correct me if I'm wrong, but Sam Altman, he came from apparently some of his engineers

basically worked for Google.

And Google took a while to announce or introduce AI into the industry.

And that's when Elon Musk also got involved.

Elon was like, you know what, I thought this thing was going to be for free, but these

guys are busy selling it to people.

So therefore he left the deal.

So he wasn't into the monetization of the thing.

And then Microsoft bought them.

And then that's when Edge started having a competitive advantage against Google.

Now, honestly speaking, I don't have a problem with Google.

I feel like at the end of the day, they are like the information hub of a lot of things

from maps, from search, Gmail.

You understand.

I think it works because any Tom, Dick, and Harry that you know, they have a Gmail account.

It used to be Yahoo at some point, but you literally laugh at a person who's still using

a Yahoo account.

And there's also a tight stereotype about people who have Yahoo.

I still have a Yahoo email.

I haven't deleted it.

I haven't...

Literally when I started, I don't know, going into the online space, I created a Yahoo account,

which I don't remember anymore.

But I'll see a plumber who still has a Yahoo account written on their car.

I'm like, hey, my guy, I'm not sure.

Yeah, it's like MySpace days kind of memory.

Exactly.

Exactly.

In terms of like the space, when you look at it from the different pockets that you

now see, from the networks also that you hold, representation comes a lot in terms of equity,

in terms of, for example, when you look at how many, for example, black entrepreneurs

are in a space or how many black-founded businesses thrive in nowadays.

From an equity perspective, from a representation perspective, what do you think the needle

can be better moved on in terms of those issues?

Yeah, that's like an ocean of a question in terms of...

I can give you like an ocean of answers for that.

But a simple response to that is I feel like South Africans, number one, we don't support

each other.

Why am I saying that?

You look at the state of the Kasi economy, for example.

Every shop that you go to, who owns it?

Ah, yeah.

You understand?

Yeah.

My friend and...

Exactly.

I have a problem with that because it's like, you know what, they had a formula, it's a

working formula.

But the thing is, again, as South Africans, we simply just hand it over that market to,

you understand, to foreign people.

Same as the formal sector, which owns most of that sector.

A lot of white corporates.

Exactly.

I also want to talk about the spaza shop issue that has been emerging quite on the

the news lately as also for a decade long-held conversation about foreign ownership to create

that sense of belonging identity that has eroded South African identity almost.

To touch on that, spaza shops currently face a lot of contentious issues, like not

just from food quality concerns food issues or counterfeit goods.

We've seen a lot of exposés on counterfeit goods.

But from your perspective, what are the reforms that can shift hands or that need to be done

to change that narrative of saying this is now going to be a better fate for South Africans?

Looking at the technology that you also want to create.

Yeah.

Look, OK, that's where I felt like I saw something on the news about having more inspectors as

well to go and inspect the foods that get sold to people from the spaza shops.

That's not necessarily a technology-related thing.

But I think from a tech perspective, again, tech can only do so much.

We can help in the e-commerce side of things, like from selling products and whatever.

Whoever is responsible for the inventory, checking the quality, making sure that whatever

gets delivered is basically like something that a person can actually consume.

So it's more of a health and safety issue that we have more than anything from especially

from like the spaza shops.

I mean, I've been to a couple of spaza shops where you buy something.

My last instance where I bought something from a spaza shop, I was busy cooking and

then I needed rice immediately.

And it was on a Sunday.

I was like flip, shop is closed and all this.

And I sent the established shop so that you can buy like something proper from someone.

OK, cool.

There's my friend shop.

Let me go buy a bag of rice.

Nothing can happen to a bag of rice.

Cool.

I open this bag of rice and it's like, I'm like, what are these black?

So I boil the water.

So the rice goes in and then these black things are like floating on top, almost like fleas

and stuff.

So I check the expiry date and that bag of rice is a year.

It's been here since it expired.

And then when you go back to these guys and you're like, guy, like what's happening?

If something that is expired can last for so long, like in the shop, whatever, it means

that those guys are not even checking what they're selling to you.

And that guy was so unbothered.

He's like, my friend, I can give you another one.

I'm like, no, I'm not sure if you should give me another one.

But why are you still having this problem?

So they're very absent-minded about it.

They don't care.

They're like, you know what, somebody is just going to come and finish this thing.

They're going to buy it.

So for me, I feel like tech can do only so much, but it's more of a health and safety

issue more than anything.

And some of these guys, they sleep in their shops as well.

You need to thread carefully around the whole thing.

But my thing is, again, South Africans need to try to regain the ownership of the township

economy.

There are people who went to Varsity back in the day whose school fees was paid through

the money that their parents made through the Spaza shops.

Now you don't even get that.

But a lot of things that are quite booming in the rural areas, you find like your tavern,

there and there, again, the alcohol thing.

You understand?

But we need to find a way to make clean money, like regain some sectors that we lost and

not be so easy going about it.

Because I feel like we're too understanding as South Africans in terms of both from the

informal and formal sectors.

And it's like we're losing everything right in front of us.

And we're not even paying attention.

We're focusing on let's listen to the next piano song, let's go to the next groove.

And that's pretty much about it.

Where are Black South Africans?

Which sector do we own?

Consuming.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So that's the problem that you have.

You understand?

It's like if I see a Bandile who's trying to tap into whatever sector, I want to be

better than Bandile.

I fight Bandile.

I get rid of Bandile.

And then I get there and I find out that I can't even do that.

And then that whole thing is basically gone.

How do we start working on those, like pull him down?

Like, yeah.

It's literally the pull him down syndrome.

Yeah.

We need to find means and ways to actually partner up with each other.

I mean, it's there, but it's not as loud as it should be.

It's not as big as it should be.

South Africans need to start owning their own markets, for example.

You look at the township economy, you look at the actual formal economy.

We don't have enough representation on all corners.

We just consuming and we go to work.

We are literally the modern slave.

If you think about it, always do we work for money so that we can take that money and buy

the groceries from Shoprite.

We go back home, we consume it.

When we don't have enough money to buy whatever we need from Shoprite, we take that money,

we go to the spaza shop, which is owned by my friend who takes that money and he sends

it offshore.

So it's not reinvested at all?

It's not reinvested at all back into the actual economy.

And the thing is, there's too much dependency on government, which I feel we shouldn't even

be depending on government.

I feel like we should be self-efficient, but we can't be because we're busy fighting ourselves

and government is not even investing enough into small businesses.

So it's very tough for the typical black South African who's trying to come up with a business.

And the best way to go about it, I don't want to say the typical thing of coming up with

an organization or whatever.

I feel like we also have too many organizations.

And we have too many policies.

Exactly.

Too many policies, too many organizations.

It's like for me, it's like all I want to see is action from South Africans in terms

of, okay, you know what, there's a group of South African black graphic designers, there's

a group of South African black architects.

And the question of pricing as well is that as South Africans, it's very easy for us to

question the price of a black person in terms of a service.

It's like if I find a mark, whatever, somewhere in the same industry and they caught me 12

or 13 times, I'm not even going to ask for a discount because I'm like, okay, I understand.

That's like a white business.

And then if I find an Oga or whatever from wherever in Africa, it gives me an expensive

price, I'm going to understand.

But go to a SIPO for the same service, they have the same qualifications, same everything,

I'm going to ask for a discount.

That mentality needs to go as well.

You understand?

It's like people need to actually understand the value of black South African owned businesses

because when you invest in a South African black-owned business, it's going to invest

back into the country.

It's going to hire South Africans as well.

That's why we have such high unemployment in South Africa because there is no small

business now that is booming to the level of actually becoming or let me say this, no,

but there's like a small fraction of them that actually have the potential to hire young

South Africans.

So I don't know, I don't want to say government must pump money into small businesses because

that money never gets there.

It goes to someone we don't even know.

And then next thing, a few months later, there's a case in the commission of inquiry, whatever.

You understand that always happens.

So for me, I've kind of like lost hope into the whole system and I'm like, you know what?

So what redemption is there?

I think it has literally become like every man for himself type of vibe.

And the only thing is finding or creating spaces that help black South Africans in selling

or let me not just say black South Africans, actually just South Africans as a whole, just

help them like in selling their products to the masses.

And the masses basically accepting the price for it is the way that it is because I don't

think that a lot of, I don't think that anyone dumps up surprise.

If you sit down, you think about, okay, if I buy this table for this much and then I

have to transport it to whatever province to sell it to so and so, how much more cup

do I need to add on the original price?

And that's it.

I think we just need to create spaces that allow other people to also sell things or

products or services to other fellow South Africans.

And there's a platform that I've been working on with a couple of my friends who are entrepreneurs.

So the focus on that platform is basically to assist small businesses, especially into

the Kasi economy, bringing it into the online space.

So imagine you can order something online from the Spaza Shop, but the thing is again,

we need a lot of change in terms of the Spaza Shop industry, like bringing in like South

Africans, helping them like with finding means to basically put that business online as well

so that their market is not just like focusing on the immediate people that are just around

them.

They find ways to basically sell to maybe other townships that are nearby.

So we're just trying to come up with a township-like or township-esque take a lot.

You know, we like, I don't know, if you sell it wherever you just put it there on the

e-commerce platform, we basically help you with marketing.

You sell whatever.

That's it.

You see.

We have a nice, decent marketplace.

Exactly.

Yeah.

We just need to, I don't know, have marketplaces, find ways to, I mean, you see in South Africa,

I can tell you one thing.

If you come up with, and this is going to sound controversial.

If you come up with a nice like groove area for us, for South Africans to go and have fun

and then you sell your own alcohol or whatever, you're going to make a lot of money.

You understand?

Which already tells you that we have issues.

South Africans like, we don't care.

We can buy the most expensive bottle of whatever.

We are over-invested into that.

And I'm not saying people mustn't have fun.

They should because they deserve it.

But at the end of the day, we must not all start clubs and it mustn't just be the club

and alcohol industry that's booming.

Agriculture needs to boom.

Take what you call this retail and so forth.

As you say, as you rightly say, entertainment is also important, right?

It is, yeah.

But not over-reliance of entertainment as a consumption, as a method of the only consumption

to excess.

How can we curb, because it's very hard to curb someone's entertainment religious habit

which has become very almost indoctrinated in them.

I mean, now we enjoy Amapiano, which is quite global now.

South African entertainment industry now enjoys a very much more global stage now.

You see now, for example, Hennessy announcing that they are now monetizing or they're strategically

entering relationships with South Africa in terms of their brands, in terms of their distributions

and now geopolitical concerns also in the mix come into concern with Trump now coming

into office.

Yeah.

I just wanted to segue into the energy piece in some ways.

Looking at the play of how everything is happening globally at the global stage and with South

Africa at a unique position, what do you think would be the way to navigate this uncertainty

almost?

For me, it's simple.

Just putting equal focus on everything.

I don't have a problem with the piano industry or music industry per se, like booming.

We need that to happen.

We actually need to also get that international money.

It's as important.

The liquor sector as well.

It's cool, but I feel like we're over-investing into that.

But it's like if we can put the same energy into the retail sector, into the clothing

sector, it would make so much difference.

Where's our manufacturing industry?

Everybody's just buying everything from China.

You take the trip issue, for example, where is it manufactured?

Isn't there other closing now?

Isn't there a foreclosure now for them on a business risk?

But he did that because he was having issues with his marriage and stuff, and then he's

rebranding.

So again, it's like he was buying sneakers from China and then comes and sells them in

South Africa.

I also thought he's making everything locally.

But again, we need to find means.

I understand that it can be quite pricey for him to produce locally.

Do you think it would benefit us as well if we were to have that strong held political

buy-in as well and social buy-in to say, hey, let's truly be proud of South Africa?

For example, I'm supporting Avelile in his business.

That's truly like a South African call to action.

Reindustrialization has a different look for different spaces and different...

I mean, the textile industry has had a plague of issues for the past decade or more.

So I'm not just competing with cheap Chinese products or importers, you highlight, but

also a lot of political uncertainty, which a lot of businesses are also quite scared

of.

Looking at that, what do you think are some of the opportunities that we can better look

at, I think, in terms of support, in terms of what you are calling us as people to do?

In terms of support, you see, again, I don't want to take that as a government must because

I'm like, it's over the top.

You're looming the vaccine for private sector because when you look at it, most of the drive

has been happening for private sector.

Exactly, like the private sector.

It's quite important.

I mean, if you go to Eastern Cape you see a lot of abandoned factories with the highest

amount of unemployment as they as well.

So it's like, Vusi Thembekwayo also mentioned this.

It feels like everybody is trying to go into tech.

We coming up with first world solutions for a third world, which is still experiencing

third world issues, basically.

In as much as it's important to find a balance in terms of, OK, how do we make sure that

we still can compete with the first world?

We must also resolve our third world issues.

Do you think like, tying to that first world, third world versus narrative, right?

Do you think maybe South Africa has an identity issue or on some of the issues that we accurately

face, like inequality, which a lot of first world countries really have, like they have

a mix of it, but it's not purely as acute as us.

I think we do.

I want to say this, like honestly, South Africans think they are better than the rest of Africa,

which is not the case.

Because you meet a lot of African people besides the guys that do legitimate businesses.

You actually get a lot of people from Africa who come up with proper businesses and they're

booming and you can actually see that.

These people are properly thriving.

When you go to Joburg, you see a lot of black people who are quite like black South Africans

who are, again, on the same breadth.

Our selling point into the whole Brexit is that we are like the gate into Africa, basically,

like into the rest of Africa, but we don't really have a proper relationship with the

rest of Africa because, again, we have this identity crisis of thinking that we're better

than the rest of Africa.

If we took like a more like a civil bureaucratic approach in terms of, okay, you know what,

let's try to work with everyone in Africa, like all the countries actually established

these railway roads that Ramaphosa has been talking about in terms of being able to transport

minerals into other parts of Africa and also exporting to other countries, basically.

I think we do have an identity crisis because just within South Africa, South Africa is

like all the markets are owned by foreigners, basically.

So we're just consumers, you understand, and I think we spend too much time in our heads

in terms of, okay, you know what, I'm better than you, whatever, but when you go to the

bank balance, it's saying something else.

We're focusing more on to looking cool than actually accumulating real wealth.

Things such as generational wealth is quite important.

If you take, for example, like a typical Muslim 25-year-old, you take a closer Zulu Swati,

whatever, 25-year-old, it's a typical middle class.

You take same age white person, and then you look at their responsibilities.

The black child still has a responsibility of sending money to Gogo and Mkhulu and to

your parents, and you still need to take care of yourself.

You still need to come and stay in Cape Town and pay like the amounts of rent.

It's weird in terms of from the, if you look at the scale of everything, so all these three

guys, they earn the same amount of money, but the other two guys are making more money

than this guy because this guy has more responsibilities than the other guys.

So actually they're not equal.

But also the workplace, right?

Yeah.

Because at the end of the day, people still get paid discriminated, whether 25-year-old

but racial, long racial line and gender lines.

Touching on, for example, the black tax issue, which we should accurately rate, the deep-seated

psychological toll that it took that not only is your money supposed, your money is not

yours at the end of the day, because upon these responsibilities, you still have to

show up at work, you still have to show that you still have decent clothing, have capability

to function and be a professional, however you show up at work.

What is the new ones that we need to understand around black tax?

I don't think, look, understanding our history, there's nothing wrong with black tax, but

everything is wrong with black tax at the same time because maybe at the commercial

industry actually, if they could have the same understanding or level of understanding

that look, your grandparents probably had to fight like 10 times harder just to get

to like you to school or your parents or whatever.

Same as your parents, they had to like work extra, extra hard to get you to where you

need to be.

By the time that they retire, they actually don't even have a retirement fund to cover

them for whatever.

So they actually end up depending on you.

So now all of that needs to come from you.

It's a bit of like a juxtaposition if you weigh by it's good and bad.

It's bad in the sense of if you really, really not making enough or working like extra hard

than the guy you think you make the same amount as, you'll be frustrated for the rest of your

life.

We need to come up with ways, man, of ensure that, okay, cool, our parents are set, we

are set, the kids are set, the next generation is set in terms of the black population, because

I feel like we're just recycling the same problem over and over and over again.

And that tax becomes generational because now your kids have to take care of you.

Because now you had to take care of your grandparents.

Now you end up not having enough to take care of yourself.

Say you have a child and then by the time you get old, you're like, hey, my guy, I

need help.

And then your child, obviously because they love you, then they're obviously going to

send money to you as well.

And now they're facing the same frustration that you are facing.

So it's like it's a cycle that needs to break.

We need to break it somehow.

I'm not sure how to, but...

I mean, in your relationship with that cycle, what is your relationship now?

How are you re-changing or reconfiguring that relationship for yourself?

I like that you asked me that question.

So my thing is because again, I experienced black text and I understand why I experienced

it, which is why I don't necessarily have a problem with it.

Like with my parents, they're quite easygoing, they'll come to you and ask you for something

only if it's really like an emergency.

With my child, I don't want anything from my child.

I literally go like, you know what?

I'm going to do everything for you.

You understand you must grow up to be whatever you want to be.

I'll support you.

When I get old, I'm going to have my own things, which it's things that I've put in place from

a policy perspective, from a retirement perspective, from if something happens to me today, I know

that she's sorted, she can still go to school, she can be sorted.

So it's things that I feel like a lot of people, they are not privileged to, things like having

a financial advisor, because trust me, all of us, we think that we know how to use our

money and you just see like this amount of money in your bank account and you think like,

I have a lot of money.

Next thing, rent comes in, they take it, funeral policy takes it, life insurance takes it,

medical aid takes it.

By the time the month is not even done or by the first week of the following month,

you left with so little money.

You are like, you're scraping from whatever that you have again.

You understand?

So if you actually take your stake and you sit down with the financial advisor, they'll

show you, look, you're spending too much here and there and there and there.

You can cut this by this much and then you can take this money and maybe actually whatever

insurance that you took is actually overcharging you, you can actually get the same cover from

these people.

It's just lack of information, I guess.

Because for me personally, that's the one aspect that helped me understand how to actually

cater for the black text thing.

Like the conversations I was having with him, for example, I was like, you know what, every

time my parents come with an emergency, they would come and ask for this much money.

So he's like, no, AV, allocate a certain fee within whatever that you make on a monthly

basis, send it there and then it's up to them.

Or it's either you send it to them or you take the fee and then you put it in a savings

or investment or whatever.

So that when they call and you take that money and then you just give it to them.

It's almost like an emergency fund for that responsibility.

For that, exactly.

So from saving maybe like a mere 500 grand, 250, whatever, you start at whatever level

that you think is comfortable for you.

Or you open whatever savings account, investment account, you just put all that money there.

And then when your parents come and they say we have this emergency, you just draw that

money and give it to them.

That's really quite novel because I know a lot of people are frustrated with ad hoc requests.

You're like, oh, there's so much money now you have to go into debt because of those

responsibilities, you have to borrow from John to pay Peter.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, it goes back to the same thing because he was like, guy, you know that your parents

are going to come with an emergency.

Yeah.

Quite recently we had to do like a tombstone review for a lot of our siblings who never

had tombstones because our parents had money issues again, cousins and whatever.

And everyone had to put money together again.

And it was an inconvenience for some people because they like, now I have to take this

money that was meant for this thing and put it into this thing.

Some of us who were like, okay, cool, I've been putting this money on the side, so let

me just take this fee and just invest it back into that.

So at the end of the day, I feel like if you understand your costs, the most important

thing is understand your costs from a daily perspective, weekly, monthly, every six months,

every year.

And usually we are creatures of repetition every time, you know, okay, every year by

this time I'm going to get a phone call from whoever they're going to say that they need

this on a daily basis.

This is what I need.

This is how much it costs.

And borrowing from that, I think that literacy that you're talking about is quite important

for entrepreneurs to have as well.

Yeah.

I think you're in a unique position to probably give us tips on what are the lessons that

you've heard about entrepreneurship financial literacy?

What are some of those lessons that you would dive out looking back in your journey so far?

For me, the 50, 20, 30 rule.

So 50% needs, 30% your wants, and then 20% your savings.

And then literally there's a spreadsheet I can give it to you.

It's preset.

So there's a section where you go like income.

This is my income.

And then needs, your needs would be if you're paying rent.

So anything like your non-negotiables.

So if you're paying rent, child school fees, your transport fee, your groceries, those

are like your non-negotiables.

Your lights and everything.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Electricity, all those things are your non-negotiables.

So if you know that at the end of the month you can't pay for non-negotiables, that's

when you know you messed up big time.

So you must make sure that under your needs section, you put in whatever costs that you

have there.

It needs not to exceed 50% of whatever it is that you're earning.

And then your wants, it needs not to exceed 30%.

Your savings need not to exceed 20%.

Other people like to flip the 30 and 20.

It's actually not realistic in the sense of people don't budget for growth.

That's why you will find the Sipo who goes to rents, they're such an awesome time.

They know that they have savings.

They're like, ah, okay, today means some savings.

They know that there's this extra amount of cash, but I usually use it for this.

Ah, but I'm having such an incredible time.

You know what?

Let me just close my eyes and just buy this liquor.

They do it.

And then the following day or following week, they're back.

Exactly.

So yeah.

So it's like you're just making like impulsive transactions basically.

They are not based on any calculation or you didn't even plan everything.

Yeah, so that's the thing.

It's like for me, if I go to group, for example, what I do, I take all my money, I stash it

away somewhere and I leave just enough for the group.

If I know I'm having so much of a nice time, then I know if I make that, I'm done.

You see.

So that's a discipline that you need to have from a financial perspective as an entrepreneur.

And I think I was trying to touch on this question, but I'm glad I remember it now.

Like looking at Cape Town, like it's quite unique because everyone who comes to Cape

Town, my family, they come to it like, hey, this is such a different country outside.

It's like you're so unique.

Like for me as an entrepreneur starting a business in Cape Town, is there an opportunity

for you, for example, to say, given the years of experience in Cape Town, I'm looking to

relocate to elsewhere?

Or is, for example, you mentioned Joburg area, is, for example, Cape Town the best position

for you as a business or would you encourage people to start, especially black entrepreneurs,

to start in Cape Town?

I'd say start in Cape Town.

Yeah.

I'll tell anyone to start in Cape Town.

You know why?

Cape Town will challenge you.

It will challenge you in any, every sort of way as a business because it's expensive.

The market doesn't like to spend a lot.

You need to be creative from a costing or charging perspective.

Influence as well.

There's clicks in Cape Town.

You need to find a way to address that in terms of how do I make sure that I don't only

subscribe to So & So's click?

Like for example, knowing that there's clicks in Cape Town, for me, I'm like, I just make

sure I have one friend in each and every click.

That's it.

And then I know that that friend will probably tell them, hey, there's this guy who does

this, whatever you see.

It's a difficult industry in that sense, well, okay, Bandile's click, they do this and that's

it.

No outside is allowed.

Very exclusive.

Yeah.

It's very exclusive.

Yeah.

And I think one of the ways that I, like a long time ago, not sure if it's as long as

I think it was, but when I started the Black Friday's events, that's what I did.

I came up with this event concept and I was like, okay, So & So belongs to this click,

So & So in this person, and this was like, I invited all of them.

They came, they partied together.

They had a nice time, took the contact details, put them in my contact list.

And then when I market, I market to everyone.

So yeah, I'd say starting Cape Town, I think Joburg is very approachable as a black person.

I feel like Joburg people, they support each other from a business perspective, especially

the black culture there.

But somehow it's the almost every, I don't know, every third or fourth person that is

black that I saw there, you can see these guys, his own business, he's not struggling.

He's driving a nice car.

He's I'm not saying a car is a symbol of wealth because that's another misconception.

But you can see like these people have their things in order.

Oh, maybe we looks can be deceiving.

That's what I'm saying.

Because what's it Yeah, because you get some people who stay in expensive apartments and

then they run the furniture in Joburg.

What's the place?

Is it Midway or what?

I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So again, you get a guy who drives like a GTI drives the latest version of the M5.

They don't even have a chair.

That's again, that's where they look.

So that's a person who focuses a lot more on their aesthetics than their actual reality.

Yeah.

So I'd say I start in Cape Town.

Once you make it in Cape Town, I feel like you can make it anyway, because a lot of people

that I know that are currently booming in Joburg, they come from Cape Town, same as

in Eastern Cape, same as your kids and a lot of them, they come from Cape Town.

So that tells you that there's there's something about Cape Town will test you and help you

grow as a person like your emotional intelligence from a business perspective, from just being

a person on how to interact with everyone, how to approach business.

I think Cape Town is important in that aspect.

Also from an educational perspective, some of the best institutions are here in Cape

Town.

With experience in the flux of digital nomads, I think a lot of people have had questions

about or uncertainty about the moving of people and the hyper expensive cost of living in

Cape Town, like rent, as we say, rent is quite an arm and a leg for a lot of people.

I can you find that the place is not even as rent worthy as the amount.

So how would you how would you describe the issue and what do you think would be better

placed for us as people to navigate that as Capetonians within different cliques or?

Look, the issue of digital nomads is an actual issue, but I feel like it's not an issue at

the same time in terms of it's not a one size fits all type of thing.

I feel like if as a landlord, you know that there's digital nomads who probably can afford

to pay 20,000, 30,000 rand of rent per month.

You can't compare that to a people who works for like a call center and expect him to to

be the same amount of rent, probably two times of whatever he makes from salary perspective.

Cape Town is actually divided into different sections.

Like if you go to your Observatory side, you get like student friendly accommodation.

If you go towards your Goodwood side, you get like family orientated accommodation.

The further what I've discovered is like the further you are from town, the cheaper the

rent gets.

The closer you are to town, the more expensive it gets.

That's the system.

But the thing is, again, you can save on rent and then your transport charges go like they

skyrocket.

There needs to be a balance.

I know that with this issue of the taxis and the trains and stuff, like people in terms

of like from commuting, the issue of commuting to work, it was a big issue because the taxi

industry had like a monopoly, you know, because trains are not working.

Now trains are working again.

So people can actually go to work for like a lot less than what they used to pay.

It's tricky.

Yeah, and I feel like for real, landlords need not to compare locals with digital nomads

because the skills are just not equal.

Earlier this year, we actually did this year of change, a great year of elections, not

just in South Africa, but globally.

What are you in hindsight now looking back?

What are you most hopeful or most happy about?

The changes that you might have implemented personally or as a business or as a country

that you feel are in the right shifting, shifting to the right direction and looking ahead as

well.

What direction do you want to see unfold?

Personally as a business, again, I have sharpened my radar from a service offering perspective,

branding, SEO, web services, social media marketing.

That's what we're focusing on as a business and we're strictly a digital agency and we've

done some changes, even our domain name.

So initially our first domain was mayhemde.com.

The reason why it was mayhemDE, some people used to like, I don't know, butcher the word

mayhemDE.

But the reason why I made it mayhemDE is because the design and entertainment was quite long.

It was just like a sentence, mayhem design and entertainment.

As time went on, we basically got rid of that portion that says design and entertainment

and then we just encompassed everything into digital.

Basically the entertainment part fell off because we were like, you know what, let's

just focus on.

So that's one change that I appreciate.

So we renamed the business to mayhem digital, design and entertainment.

Then the domain instead of ending with.com is basically mayhemdigital.africa.

My focus is on improving the businesses that are within the African context.

I'm not just isolating the business to that and not opening the opportunity for any international

business.

I'm not just isolating the business to it.

It goes back to the thing of trying to solve third world issues with first world solutions.

There are certain scenarios where that works, like the Google business profile thing.

Also like social media marketing, you get some uncle in Eastern Cape who has a spaza

shop.

They don't know how to market themselves.

They just know there's a Facebook somewhere.

You can go and talk to that person, put them on social media, help them market their business.

That's another change that we are like, okay, you know what, let's actually start approaching

these hard to reach areas and start introducing technology to them so that they can expand

in their markets.

So that's a change that I appreciate.

We are also looking at affiliate marketing.

So we're tapping into affiliate marketing as well.

We're working a lot with influencers and people that have followings that range from 350k,

250k.

My focus is on people that start from 5,000 and upwards because you find that those people,

even though they have so many numbers, I believe that each and every person has their own market.

So if you tap into each and every market, you'll find that that person, if there's

a Bandile who has a marketing of 5,000 people, Bandile doesn't say, doesn't have a proper

business brand or website, whatever.

So we'll have a discussion about it and see how we can partner up with each other.

So that we can help you so that you can help us as well.

And I think just touching on the numbers, I think at the end of the day, we come in number

of sales culture.

I know business numbers are quite important.

At the end of the day, yes, plus growth, minus negativity.

How important would you say in influencing or impact work that you are doing as well?

Looking at Black Friday, how important is the reliance needed to focus on numbers to

drive impact or purpose?

Looking into the business or looking into the political space.

Numbers are quite important, but numbers are important in every aspect, actually.

That's how you grow.

The higher the number, the better the opportunities.

Especially from a marketing perspective, you're looking at different audiences.

That's how I look at influencer market.

Again, if you have a mere 5,000 people, 5,000 people is actually not just mere, it's actually

a lot of people.

So if you find a way to just wave your hand like, hey guys, I'm here.

This is what I do.

You might catch one or two or three people there.

So I feel like it's important in that aspect because again, as a business, you can sometimes

find yourself marketing the same service to the same people over and over again.

It's like you just keep on changing your message, but it's like people are like, okay, we get

it.

We know that you do this.

So that's where the networking part is basically.

It comes into place.

You need to network with as many people as possible in different industries, but you

know that these people need my services.

So for me, I approach business from that aspect, especially whatever that you're selling, if

it applies to everyone.

If you're selling t-shirts, you can sell t-shirts to anyone in whatever industry.

Everyone needs a t-shirt.

If your industry or your circle of friends are people that make t-shirts and you keep

on marketing yourself to people, to other people that make t-shirts, who's going to

buy a t-shirt?

So I think the number thing is important in that aspect of like try to tap into as many

different industries as possible.

How do you know that?

Social media has made it quite easy.

You get your Dr. Musas that are trending.

We know he's a doctor.

You get your fashion influencers who trend for whatever reason.

You get different types of influencers basically, like your chefs and so forth.

You understand?

If you were running a branding agency and then you see someone who's an influencer,

sometimes you will actually catch a big fish in terms of you get someone who has hundreds

of thousands of followers, but they don't even have the service that you offer.

And then you offer your services to that person and that person markets you to basically their

audience.

And then that's how you tap into that industry.

For example, I had like one client, when was it last year, who's in the tourism industry,

was like, guy, I heard that you guys can do websites.

Can you do a website for me for tourism?

Out of the one guy, we got five other clients just from like a referrals perspective because

he was like, okay, I'm actually making a lot of money.

Cool.

You know what?

They talk to each other.

They're like, yeah, then you get a call.

Hey, I got your number from this guy.

He says that you helped build his website.

Can I have a meeting with you or can we chat and whatever?

Cool.

We sit down, ask them what's the frustration that you're having.

In most cases, they are not generating enough numbers.

Tourists wants to see like a proper website where they can transact from an e-commerce

perspective.

Okay, cool.

We can help with that problem.

You assist that person.

They're very happy.

They write a positive review.

They talk to their friends and then you get another phone call from another person.

So that's just an example of just penetrating one industry.

And I've been, even now I'm busy with like a new website, which is like the sixth person

in the tourism industry that was referred by a person that was referred to me by someone

that I built for a website for in the same industry.

Hey Business, there's one person that I'm helping with like their branding for their

business.

I built a website, did their branding.

I posted on my WhatsApp statuses and then one of my friends saw it and then they referred

me to another person in another different province who has a similar business.

And it's weird how it happened because on that post, I quote that post like quite late.

I saw it like three hours later.

I could see like everyone else is busy trying to basically convince this lady to use them

for the services.

And I literally just read through the comments and I saw that she gave her number to this

other guy.

I copied the number, saved it.

I was like, Hey, I saw that you need this.

By the way, this is our latest project that we did for So and So.

She was like, cool, I'm taking you.

It's the quality of the work that you produce that speaks for you.

So I think in the numbers aspect, that's how numbers work for you.

Each and every contact is an asset.

Whether you still talk to that person or not, they might still be checking your WhatsApp

statuses.

They might still be checking whatever that you post on social media.

The importance of updating and social media is quite important.

I think you highlighted some of the lessons that I think I'll be taking away about building,

alluding to building a great brand, not just having a Google presence, but having a literacy

about networking.

I think those three critical skills, I think are so easily forgotten.

I mean, demonstrated.

Yeah.

And I think the last one that I want to give you is the pricing structure as well.

Like we offer subscriptions again, when did we start offering subscriptions?

We started during COVID, everybody else was dropping prices.

We decided not to drop prices, but offer the same price at a subscription.

So we were saying to you that we will give you the service, but you can pay us over time.

And a lot of people are not doing that.

And what helps even from, if you look at it from a bank perspective, if the bank can see

that there is consistent money coming into your account on a month to month basis, they

will trust you more as opposed to that guy who's trying to catch a big fish and this

month they catch it.

Next month.

Next month they don't catch it.

The other month they don't catch it.

The other month they catch it.

And then it keeps on happening like haphazardly, just like that.

Kind of like from a subscription perspective, there's like consistent-

Revenue for yourself as a business.

So you can apply that method into different industries.

I think the spaza shop at some point was also offering things at a subscription basis in

a certain way, but you know, sometimes people don't pay.

I don't know how they handle it in that aspect, but in a digital aspect, there's ways that

you can protect yourself.

Any highlights from this conversation that you're going to keep with you?

Especially us as South Africans, how much we are giving away to other foreign countries

and how much we are actually not even investing in ourselves as a country.

So I think that's like food for thought in terms of how do we, as small businesses, find

ways to work together and try to build the small business sector.

Because you look at the United States, the small business sector, they are booming.

So it's like, why is the same thing not happening in South Africa?

Because we don't support each other.

We try to pull each other down.

That's it.

So we must find ways to work together, tap into different industries.

If you're still in varsity, try to network with your other varsity mates in different

faculties.

That's how you end up building a stronger network.

Also quality work.

If you're doing a service business, make sure that you provide quality work.

If you're selling products, make sure it's quality products.

Again, you're going to have the expired product issue if you don't actually check.

Without rice and you don't want those.

That's actually one of the things that happens to us a lot.

If you're building something and then you try to sell it to people, they will take it

even more when you are black than if you are any other race in terms of the quality of

that product.

For me, I see a positive into that because that's how you actually become a better manufacturer

because you get so much negative feedback at first.

And then if you're a person that actually takes feedback properly, then you will improve

on your product.

And then it just becomes better and better and better and better.

That's it.

Cool.

Thank you for listening to us and thank you also for listening to the show.